What Occurs When The Legal Justice System Will get it Fallacious?
Up to date: 9:28 AM CDT Could 16, 2023
I’M SOLEDAD O’BRIEN. WELCOME TO MATTER OF FACT. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM GETS IT WRONG? SOMEONE BEHIND BARS IS FREED AFTER YEARS OR DECADES OF TIME SERVED, THEY ARE RELEASED TO AN UNCERTAIN FUTURE. THAT’S THE STORY OF SEAN ELLIS OF DORCHESTER, MASSACHUSETTS. AT AGE 19, HE WAS CONVICTED FOR MURDERING A BOSTON POLICE OFFICER. IN 2015, AFTER SPENDING MORE THAN 21 YEARS IN PRISON, HE WAS FREED, BUT STILL FACED A WEAPONS CHARGE. AS OF LAST WEEK, HIS RECORD NOW READS “ALL CHARGES DROPPED.” SEAN: I’M FORTUNATE THAT I’M ABLE TO BE ABLE TO SEE MY MOM, AT ONE POINT I HAD A FEAR SHE WOULD PASS AWAY WHILE I WAS IN PRISON. AND I DON’T HAVE TO HAVE THAT FEAR ANYMORE. SOLEDAD: ELLIS’ STORY IS NOT RARE. STUDIES SUGGEST ABOUT 6% OF PRISONERS ARE WRONGFULLY CONVICTED. JASON FLOM IS AN ADVOCATE TO FREE THOSE PRISONERS. HE IS A SUCCESSFUL RECORD EXECUTIVE AND A FOUNDING BOARD MEMBER OF THE INNOCENCE PROJECT. HE IS ALSO THE HOST OF THE PODCAST “WRONGFUL CONVICTION.” JASON FLOM, IT’S SO NICE TO HAVE YOU WITH ME. WILL YOU START BY EXPLAINING HOW YOU FIRST GOT YOUR INTEREST IN, I GUESS, THE INJUSTICE IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM? JASON: YEAH, AND THANK YOU. WE CALL IT THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM THESE DAYS BECAUSE THERE’S SO LITTLE JUSTICE IN IT. BUT I GOT MY START SO SORT O SERENDIPITOUSLY IN 1993 WHEN I JUST HAPPENED TO PICK UP THE NEW YORK POST, AND IT WAS A STOR ABOUT A KID WHO IS SERVING FIFTEEN YEARS TO LIFE FOR NONVIOLENT FIRST OFFENSE, COCAINE POSSESSION CHARGE IN A MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON IN NEW YORK STATE. AND THIS THIS STORY BLEW MY MIND AND THREW ALL MY WHAT I THOUGHT I KNEW ABOUT FAIRNESS, EQUITY, AND JUSTICE OUT THE WINDOW. AND I DECIDED I HAD TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. SO, MAKE A VERY LONG STORY SHORT, I ONLY KNEW ONE CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER. I GOT HIM TO TAKE THE CASE PRO BONO. SIX MONTHS LATER, ENDED UP IN A COURTROOM IN MALONE, NEW YORK, HOLDING THIS KID’S MOTHER’S HAND WHEN THE JUDGE BANGED THE GAVEL DOWN AND SENT HIM HOME. AND THAT WAS MY MOMENT WHEN I SAID, NOW I KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THE REST OF MY LIFE. SOLEDAD: WHAT WERE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU BEGAN TO REALIZE AS YOU GOT INTO IT LIKE, OH, WHEN YOU’RE IN JAIL, YOU HAVEN’T BEEN CONVICTED OF ANYTHING, LIKE YOU MIGHT BE THERE BECAUSE YOU JUST DON’T HAVE CASH. JASON: AND THAT AMOUNT OF CASH COULD BE TWO $250. RIGHT. YOU’RE JUST SNATCHED AWAY FROM YOUR FAMILY, YOUR SCHOOL, YO JOB, YOUR CHURCH, YOUR COMMUNITY, AND YOU’RE PUT INTO A CAGE. RIGHT? WE CALL IT HUMAN CAGING. WE NO LONGER CALL IT JAILING. IT’S A CAGE. AND AND WHY? JUST BECAUSE YOU WERE ARRESTED AND YOU DON’T HAVE MONEY TO PAY, THAT’S A VIOLATION OF THE 6TH AND THE 14TH AMENDMENTS. BECAUSE IT’S NEITHER EQUAL PROTECTION NOR DUE PROCESS. WHEN YOU HAVE TWO PEOPLE WHO ARE ARRESTED AND CHARGED BUT NOT CONVICTED, AS YOU SAID, OF THE SAME CRIME. BUT ONE GOES HOME AND THE OTHER GOES TO JAIL. SOLEDAD: AND IN MANY CASES, LET’S SAY THE PERSON IS CONVICTED. SOMETIMES THEY’VE SERVED MORE TIME IN JAIL THAN THEY WOULD HAVE GOTTEN HAD THEY BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME. JASON: AND THE FACT IS, IT HAPPENS TOO OFTEN THAT SOMEONE IS — IT MAY BE A CRIME THAT YOU DON’T GET JAIL TIME FOR. RIGHT? EVEN IF YOU’RE CONVICTED, BUT YOU’RE IN THERE. AND OF COURSE, THEN WE HAVE WHAT WE CALL THE GUILTY PLEA PROBLEM. RIGHT? SO, APPROXIMATELY 97% OF ALL FELONY CONVICTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE THE RESULT OF GUILTY PLEAS. 11 MILLION, 12 MILLION PEOPLE A YEAR IN AMERICA GOING IN AND OUT OF OUR JAILS AND PRISONS. AND SO, YOUR LAWYER, WHO YOU MAY NEVER HAVE MET UNTIL THE DAY OF YOUR TRIAL AND WHO IS JUGGLING HUNDREDS OF CASES, SAYS, LOOK, SOLEDAD, TAKE A PLEA, JUST TAKE A PLEA. YOU KNOW, YOU’RE GOING TO GET 40 YEARS. IF YOU DON’T TAKE A PLEA, YOU CAN GET OUT ON TIME SERVED OR MAYBE YOU GET A YEAR. AND PEOPLE MAKE THIS A SOPHIE’S CHOICE EVERY DAY, EVERY HOUR IN COURTROOMS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY. SOLEDAD: YOU’VE SAID ABOUT YOUR PODCAST — AND YOU’RE WEARING THE T-SHIRT OF YOUR PODCAST THAT YOU WANTED TO EDUCATE THE POOLS OF JURORS. PEOPLE WHO WOULD EVENTUALLY BECOME A JUROR WOULD UNDERSTAND BETTER THE SYSTEM THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE WEIGHING IN ON IN SOME CAPACITY. HAVE YOU FOUND THAT YOU’VE BEEN ABLE TO MOVE THE NEEDLE ON THAT? JASON: MOST PEOPLE PEOPLE BELIEVE IF SOMEONE’S IN THE DEFENDANT’S CHAIR, THEY MUST BE GUILTY BECAUSE OTHERWISE WHY WOULD THEY BE THERE? AND WE ALL WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THE SYSTEM WORKS AND THAT IT’S FAIR, BUT IT’S NOT AND IT DOESN’T. AND SO, I THINK EVERYONE NEEDS TO REMEMBER THAT WE’RE SUPPOSED TO BE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY IN THIS COUNTRY. WE MUST REMEMBER THAT EVERY TIME AN INNOCENT PERSON IS LOCKED UP, THE GUILTY PERSON REMAINS FREE, AND THAT PERSON WILL OFTEN INFLICT HORRIBLE DAMAGE ON THEIR COMMUNITY, ON PEOPLE WHO NEVER DESERVED IT. AND IF OUR SYSTEM HAD WORKED PROPERLY, THEY WOULDN’T
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What Occurs When The Legal Justice System Will get it Fallacious?
Up to date: 9:28 AM CDT Could 16, 2023
Research counsel that about 6 % of individuals in prisons are wrongfully convicted. Jason Flom is a founding board member of the Innocence Challenge and host of the podcast, “Wrongful Conviction.” Soledad O’Brien talks with him about his mission to free harmless prisoners.
Research counsel that about 6 % of individuals in prisons are wrongfully convicted. Jason Flom is a founding board member of the Innocence Challenge and host of the podcast, “Wrongful Conviction.” Soledad O’Brien talks with him about his mission to free harmless prisoners.
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